Heaven, Hell, and My Mom

Image via Wikipedia

That whole “Rob Bell Discussion” that’s been going on here, there and everywhere has a lot of good discussion points about it. Universalism. Grace. Judgment. Christian discourse. Who’s in hell? Who’s in heaven? Who can be saved? What’s God’s will? What does the Scripture say?

I know my mom reads this blog (my most loyal reader, I’m sure) but I don’t know if she was aware that the forwarded email letter she sent to me yesterday touches on the issues surrounding this debate. The email said it was the BEST POEM IN THE WORLD. I don’t know if that’s the case. However, it does ring with the words I often say, “When I get to heaven, I’m pretty sure I’ll be surprised by all the people God let in that I might have kept out.”  My understanding of God is that he’ll be more gracious than I’d ever be…and I generally consider myself a pretty gracious person.

Here’s the poem. There was no attribution when it came to me.

I was shocked, confused, bewildered
As I entered Heaven’s door,
Not by the beauty of it all,
Nor the lights or its decor.

But it was the folks in Heaven
Who made me sputter and gasp–
The thieves, the liars, the sinners,
The alcoholics and the trash.

There stood the kid from seventh grade
Who swiped my lunch money twice.
Next to him was my old neighbor
Who never said anything nice.

Bob, who I always thought
Was rotting away in hell,
Was sitting pretty on cloud nine,
Looking incredibly well.

I nudged Jesus, ‘What’s the deal?
I would love to hear Your take.
How’d all these sinners get up here?
God must’ve made a mistake.

‘And why is everyone so quiet,
So somber – give me a clue.’
‘Hush, child,’ He said,
‘they’re all in shock.
No one thought they’d be seeing you.’

Francis Chan Goes to Hell (I Mean, the Discussion About It)

Rob Bell.  Universalism.  Hell.  Gospel Coalition.  Evangelicalism.  Etc.

Francis Chan enters the discussion.  Here’s a video intro to how he’s looking at the topic…with a lot of humility.

This gets at a lot of my personal feelings about it.

And, just because it’s the coolest introduction ever, this is how Chan was introduced at the EXPONENTIAL event in 2009.  I think you can only watch this after you’ve seen how humble he appears in the first video.

More Rob Bell, Universalism, Heaven & Hell

Image by feyip via FlickrAhh…the conversation about Rob Bell and Universalism.  The conversation continued yesterday in Sunday School with “Hey, did you hear about Rob Bell?”  It was a question asked in a soft tone with a head shake. 

Implied in that question and head shake was a whole lot.  What was really asked was, “Did you hear about Rob Bell, the one whose videos we used and loved, and how he’s a heretical teacher and we really need to pray for his salvation and wash our hands of all that we heard from him?  It’s just too bad.  He seemed like such a nice guy.”

You know, I really need to read the book, the Love Wins book at the heart of the controversy.  I’ve been asked too many questions to keep prefacing any discussion with “I didn’t actually read the book yet.  I’ve only read reaction to it.” 

Sunday School was on a different topic and it was hard to address this bombshell with any depth.  One of the problems is that asking the question about whether hell will be full or empty is a deeply theological one.  It’s not as simple as “good people” go to heaven and “bad people” go to hell.  And it’s a conversation that talks about extremes in order to make points.  If love wins, is Hitler in heaven?  If one must be a Christian to go to heaven, is Gandhi in hell?  I don’t think that part of the discussion is particularly helpful.

Anyway, as I was once again thrust into the discussion, I found a blog post I had started on over a month ago and thought I’d finish it up here.  It’s more information for the debate discussion. 

Chris LaTondresse over at Sojourners has a blog post about Rob Bell and universalism that gets at a lot of stuff.  Chris puts out a few principles to guide the debate that I think are helpful.  Here’s a snippet of each.  Please check out the original post for more.

1. Christians should hope that all people can be (and will be) saved.
Those who believe God modeled the ultimate example of true love in the person of Jesus — and who, therefore, aspire to love their fellow humans as they love themselves — should also believe that, in the end, God’s love will win the day. So is it really that radical to suggest that this belief should accompany the earnest hope that it is actually within the scope of God’s sovereign power and unrelenting grace to reconcile all things to himself?

He includes two great quotes from Richard John Newhaus from 2001:

The hope that all will be saved is precisely that, a hope. It is not a doctrine, never mind a dogma. But some respond that we cannot even hold the hope, since it clearly contradicts the revealed truth that many, if not most, will be eternally damned. A different and much more troubling objection is that it makes no sense to be a Christian if, in fact, one can be saved without being a Christian. In this view, the damnation of others, maybe of most others, is essentially related to the reason for being a Christian. The joy of our salvation is contingent upon the misery of their damnation. If it is possible that all will be saved, it is asked, why not eat, drink, and be merry?

Such a perverse view is also more than a little like that of the laborers in the vineyard who complained that those who came at the last hour received the same reward as those who had worked all day. The master replies, “Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity? So the last will be first, and the first last” (Matthew 20). Some of the critics of the hope for universal salvation do indeed seem to begrudge the generosity of God entailed in that outcome. Theirs is a position of resentment dressed up as a claim of justice. “What was the point of my working so hard and so long if God is going to let in the riffraff on equal terms? It’s unfair!” The eschatological upsetting of such attitudes (the last will be first and first last) is a constant in the teaching of Jesus.

Then on to the other two points:

2. Jesus draws dividing lines, but his lines are different than our own.
Anyone reading the gospels will see that Jesus not only responds to the “lines” drawn by the religious leaders of his day; he draws lines of his own. But Jesus’ lines are almost always different than the lines drawn by the religious leaders, and even more startlingly, his lines are different than the lines Christians draw today.

We pick our favorite biblical passage, where Jesus’ vision for “who’s in” includes people like us, and excludes people who aren’t, meanwhile, we ignore other passages that redraw the boundaries that would force us to change in order to be included in Jesus’ “in-group.”

3. Millennials don’t resonate with the stupid battles Christians fight.
For a generation harboring increasingly negative perceptions about (and is distancing itself from) Christianity, there’s no question that controversies like these have played a big role in making these trends worse. When asked to describe present-day Christianity, the second most reported description of young people (ages 16 to 29) was that it is “too-judgmental”, with 87 percent of young non-churchgoers and 52 percent of churchgoers holding this view

….people in the real world who are struggling to negotiate their relationship with God in light of the brokenness of the world (and too often the brokenness within Christianity) are put-off by these debates. That’s not necessarily a reason not to debate, but we can’t ignore basic virtues like love, charity and empathy in the process — at least not while following the biblical call to be salt-and-light and ministers of reconciliation.

Interesting Take on Heaven and Hell

                   Image via WikipediaStill a lot of talk about the Rob Bell book, Love Wins, now that some people (not me) have read it.  Is he a heretic or false preacher or a true prophet or a man of this time or a great showman or what?  Regardless, we have a lot of folks thinking about heaven and hell.  That’s a good thing.  I found the following quote today as I was going through my inbox.

Whatever we want to say about hell, it simply cannot be what we have received as the ‘traditional’ view, a place of eternal, conscious torment. If that kind of suffering exists, there can be no heaven for any of us.

This is from Richard Hall on his blog, Connexions, from Wales

Interesting, huh?  

He says there would be no heaven if we knew that there were folks in endless torment.

Made me think.

That’s a good thing.

One Take on the Rob Bell Discussion

Thanks to Naked Pastor, whose cartoons always make me think.

Rob Bell — The Book and the Video Causing the Stir

Here’s the book (well, the cover of the book):

Here’s the promotional video:

LOVE WINS. from Rob Bell on Vimeo.

Rob Bell in My Inbox (And Maybe in Hell, Too)

Well, this morning I sat down to go over my RSS feeds, using Feedly (which taps into Google Reader).  And, LO AND BEHOLD I FIND ROB BELL.  Not just a little Rob Bell, but A LOT of Rob Bell.  Rob Bell, for those who don’t know, is the Pastor at Mars Hill Church in Michigan and behind the very popular Nooma videos (which we’ve used at Girdwood Chapel) and the Velvet Elvis Book (which I really enjoyed).

Well, he has a new book out called Love Wins and it’s causing quite a stir as it appears that Rob either enters in to UNIVERSALISM or at least touches on it, perhaps saying that God’s love is so big that hell is an empty place.  Let’s be clear.  I’ve not read the book.  I’ll probably read it after it’s out next month.  So, all I’m doing now is reading reviews–by people who have not even read the book but all have their opinions.

But, I’ve been known to get my toes up to the line of universalism, but never able to cross over.  I want hell to be a small place because the grace of Christ is so big but I put my trust in God to make the final designation, knowing it will be good and just.  The words of one of my professors, Geoffrey Wainwright, still rings in my ears:

It may or may not be Christian to be universalist.  It is definitely NOT Christian to not want to be one.

There’s a lot going on here.  Is universalism heretical?  What does our understanding of hell tell us about God?  Are Jews who were killed by Hitler, now with Hitler in hell?  Does God’s holiness demand that hell is a big place and heaven for a select few?  Are those who believe in universalism damned to eternal fire? 

Hey, these are big questions.

So, it is with great anticipation that I saw all of these links today.

First, the cartoon above from Naked Pastor.

Second, an account of how the media has spread this from Challies.

Third, a post from Hacking Christianity which reflects on an anti-condemnation book getting condemned.

Fourth, Rachel Held Evans says Bell is asking some good questions that people are already asking:

Will only a few select people make it into heaven?

How does one become one of these few?

Are people like Ghandi and Anne Frank really in hell, along with millions and millions of other people?

Do we need a loving Jesus to rescue us from a hateful God?   Is this what the gospel is all about?

Is the gospel good news or bad news?

What is the essence of God’s character?

Fifth, over at Connexions in Wales, one comment on a post says:

The early church seemed eager to excommunicate people over such matters as having the wrong tonsure. You’d think we might have learned something since then. Apparently not. Pharisaic Orthodoxy is so much easier to try than Christian love and grace, it appears.

Sixth, a more critical (and theological one) from Trevin Wax.  Read the comments to see how it shakes up.

And, lastly, from Justin Taylor and The Gospel Coalition, another critical look at Rob Bell’s potential universalism.

Look, all of this is before the book has been released.

But I think we have here the classic debate between holiness and hospitality.  They are both good.  And I sometimes find it hard to camp out in the middle.

We’ll find out more after the book release on March 29th.